Minstrel Release - Payware

Have any old VSF add-on releases? Feel free to put them in here.

Re: Minstrel Release - Payware

Postby Sharpy » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:42 pm

I assume you mean actualy sailing her.
I do have two VCR tapes of the trip From Friday Harbor to Maui.
However I haven't had a VCR player for years.

I shoud probably digitize those one day, before they disintigrate.

Steve
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Re: Minstrel Release - Payware

Postby LHookins » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:21 pm

Posting pictures of the actual boat would be excellent, but I meant a video from VSF showing how you sail her there.

I have some idea of how boats sail, and I can generally get a sailboat to do what I want in VSF, but I'd like to see how the real sailors do it. I'd also like to see how you handle the boat.

Something like: start off anchored in a cove on some interesting small island. Weigh anchor, get under sail (without using the engine, we know how to do that! :D ), make a complete circuit of the island and anchor back in the cove. Along the way you can tell us how everything works and differences between VSF and real sailing. And show off your boat, of course. :D

This would be a good showcase for VSF, and since not many boats sail like the Minstrel and if you're showing people how to sail using that boat you might be able to get a sale or two out of it. If nothing else it will get people looking at your site.

Once I've got a YouTube link I can post it as a video on Steam. VSF isn't particularly popular there yet, but I doubt many people realize it's the successor to Virtual Sailor et al.

Hook

PS. I slowed the boat down to what I suspect is a more accurate speed by editing the elements file and cutting the sail area for both main and jib to a quarter: 60 and 40. I couldn't figure out how to add drag. This also reduced the heel when carrying more sail, but it didn't go away. I restored the original values quickly enough because I prefer to sail a bit faster. :) If you make the video, keep the original values.

I fixed the worst of the heel by moving the Y values of the main and jib down from 7.4 to 5.0, and that's how I'm sailing her now. Of course, this way she's faster than the real boat.

Forgive me, I'm a retired computer programmer and I can't resist getting my hands dirty.

H.
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Re: Minstrel Release - Payware

Postby Sharpy » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:28 pm

Aloha.

Wow!!!
First off I don't have the time to create a video like that.
And it seems obvius HOW to sail her.

Second it's incredibhly easy to sail this yacht.
She performs quite closely to actually sailing her.

Yes. She heeled quite a bit in winds over 20 knts. As was true in real life.
We hit 42 degree heel in 35 knts of wind.
Perhaps the low aspect rig, from East coast styled boats.
West coast is usually high aspect rigs.

I would love to see your element file for her.!!!
I have been working on very much the same parameters you have been working with.

She really should never go over 7.5 knts.
Although we clocked her at 11.5 knts heading downwind in a gale off the Oregon coast.
That would be 'surfing' down the wave face.

Anyway thanks for your input

Steve
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Re: Minstrel Release - Payware

Postby LHookins » Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:55 am

OK, first of all is there somewhere else we should be discussing this? I don't mind either way. Also, I didn't intend to make work for you, but thought it might be something you enjoyed. Mostly, just sail the boat and talk about what you're doing. No pre-planning, no scripts. But I understand not having the time for it.

I can send you my elements file, but I really only opened elements.cfg in a text editor and edited a couple of values. In the section that has "main [control]" change "243 [wing_sur]" to "60 [wing_sur]". In the section that has "jib [control]" change "147 [wing_sur]" to "40 [wing_sur]". If this is done the Y value of these two sails doesn't need to be changed. If you leave the sail surface at the normal value, a possible Y value is change "7.4 [y]" to "5 [y]" for both sails to reduce the heel. It's easier to make quick changes in the Design->Vehicle menu in-game. I tried a few numbers and finally settled on 60 and 40.

I was testing the lower sail area with 20 knot winds and getting a max speed of a bit over 7 knots with the wind on the beam. Even though I don't have gusts set in the weather, there is considerable variation in the wind and handling her is a bit tricky sometimes.

With the stock version of the Minstrel, how much sail do you typically carry? I've had to reduce sail to 20-30% a few times. Downwind I can usually carry 90 to 100% and I'm still getting quite a bit of heel. Main and jib are seldom equal.

Also, how much heel are you willing to accept under normal circumstances? I've read 22.5 degrees for a smaller boat, but the combination of wind variation and boat movement have capsized me once even when I was trying to limit heel to 10-15 degrees. I wasn't quick enough "releasing the sheets", that is, grab the 3D main sail with the mouse and drag away from the wind.

Y'know, I don't have these problems with the Meteor and Skylge :) both of which will do about 14 to 15 knots with usually no less than 60% sail on the main and 10-15 degrees of heel. Yeah, small boats are different. The Minstrel's helm will keep you busy, which is how I remember it from one time sailing on a 29 footer on Chesapeake Bay 40 years ago. I just don't remember reducing the sail, or even how it was done.

I use TrackIR and can't live without it in a computer game. It's very useful to move your viewpoint by simply moving your head, and I can zoom in farther without missing anything because if I need to see an instrument off-screen I can simply turn my head. You can recenter your view any time (I do it a lot) and freeze the view if you need to interact with something on screen. It's great for sailing and essential for flight simming, being only slightly less useful than a joystick.

Hook
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Re: Minstrel Release - Payware

Postby LHookins » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:28 am

I changed the sail areas to 70 and 46.5 (they don't have to be exact at this point, just make the jib about 2/3 the size of the main) and I'm getting the following speeds:

Downwind, 1 point off directly down wind, typical speed 5.8, hits 6.0 occasionally, 5 degrees of heel.
Beam reach, speeds around 6.8, hits 7.5 and sometimes higher, 8 degrees heel. Lots of variation in everything.
Upwind, 4 points off wind, 4 to 5.5 knots, 12 to 15 degrees of heel with full sails. Be ready to release the main sheets.

These are typically with full main sail and adjusting the jib for control.

I tried 80 and 53 and it hit 8 knots on a beam reach most of the time.

If you want more heel than that we could always *raise* the y value on both sails. :D

I hope this doesn't upset SailorJohn too much! Those numbers aren't right, but I'm looking at adjusting them to get the right performance, then we can make them right. I'm not sure how to produce water drag, and the things I tried didn't work.

I tried taking the elements file out and found out why it was there. :) SailorJohn did a good job.

Hook
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Re: Minstrel Release - Payware

Postby Sharpy » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:00 am

Howdy.

The Minstrel sails in VSF very close to true sailng characteristics. Thanks to Sailor John.
I guess she would be considerd a a somewhat 'tender' boat. But with the 13 Tons and full keel she marched through just about anything.

I do agree with dropping the sail 'Y' lower as you have. And I have since been playing around with sail area.

On the inland waters of Puget Sound and the Queen Charlottes where this boat was originaly designed. [Galliano Island to be precise] by William Garden.
The average wind speeds are (and this is an average mind you) 10 - 15 knts.
20 knots is quite high for inland sailing. Rarely got anywhere near that for constant wind.
That is not to say that I have not sailed in 40+ knts of wind in Puget Sound as I surely have.
Sometimes rounding a pont and finding youself in 40+ knt winds

Reefing is always a great option. And I have reefed the sails in many ways. Storm Jib, (Gale open Ocean) Main double reef (Open Ocean). etc.
One thing with a Ketch rig, when caught by a surprise wind around a point of and island (San Juans) Drop the Main, and sail under Jib and Mizzen only.
Perfect balance and majorly reduced sail area.

Of course we do not have separate sail function with that kind of control in VSF. God kows we have asked for it.

Let's keep up the conversation, but through email as I would rather not have this old thread filled with more of this.
Thanks again.

My email is info@graphic-park.com


Steve
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Re: Minstrel Release - Payware

Postby LHookins » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:56 pm

Email sent. Thanks.
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